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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jet on Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:42 am

    Jec wrote:
    Jet wrote:No it doesn't, nor is that the only type of repression that occurs here. As if that makes it any less vile.


    Really? Now who's being black and white...
    How so?


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:10 pm

    Jet wrote:
    Jec wrote:
    Jet wrote:No it doesn't, nor is that the only type of repression that occurs here. As if that makes it any less vile.


    Really? Now who's being black and white...
    How so?

    There's only vile and not vile...
    Apparently all vile acts are at the same level, there's no comparison between two different acts of vileness...

    Killing in self defense is vile. Killing for pleasure is also vile, hence killing in self defense is just as bad as killing for pleasure...

    At least that's what I'm getting from you.


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jet on Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:50 pm

    AFAIK ive made no mention of killing in self defense


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:02 pm

    Jet wrote:AFAIK ive made no mention of killing in self defense

    I used it as an analogy....
    You can easily replace it with:

    Censorship is a vile act.
    Censorship for economic reasons (ie not destroying a company ruining the lives of thousands of employees) is a vile act. Censorship for offending someone's religion is a vile act.

    Hence both acts of censorship are just as bad... which is quite ridiculous...


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:11 pm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Muslim_reactions

    I don't expect them to come out and condemn it... it's the ones that support it that sickens me...


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jet on Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:24 pm

    Jec wrote:
    Jet wrote:AFAIK ive made no mention of killing in self defense

    I used it as an analogy....
    You can easily replace it with:

    Censorship is a vile act.
    Censorship for economic reasons (ie not destroying a company ruining the lives of thousands of employees) is a vile act. Censorship for offending someone's religion is a vile act.

    Hence both acts of censorship are just as bad... which is quite ridiculous...
    Sure, it would be ridiculous if those were the only two examples of reasons given for censorship.


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:23 pm

    If there were more reasons, they could also be weighted and compared...
    For example, sometimes the government censors journalists if they will reveal something that might cause huge investor panic...
    It's the vile act if censorship, but if protects the direct and indirect jobs of millions... A vile act which acts as a zero sum game, is worse than that in which at least a single non- corrupt party received benefits.


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jet on Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:36 pm

    Im sorry are we discussing our latest small business venture? I was obviously only speaking about the subject at hand.


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:42 pm

    Jet wrote:Im sorry are we discussing our latest small business venture? I was obviously only speaking about the subject at hand.

    I'm using analogies to make a point, since based on your responses... you don't get it...


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jet on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:00 pm

    *sigh*

    Your point doesnt hold water because I am obviously only speaking of repression as it pertains to the abuses within the link I posted, and you responded to. Unless you seriously think Im comparing the likes of corporate and self censorship to imprisonment in Islamic and western societies I see no point in introducing that to this conversation.


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:27 pm

    Jet wrote:*sigh*

    Your point doesnt hold water because I am obviously only speaking of repression as it pertains to the abuses within the link I posted, and you responded to. Unless you seriously think Im comparing the likes of corporate and self censorship to imprisonment in Islamic and western societies I see no point in introducing that to this conversation.

    *sigh*

    This was your response:

    "The reasons given for repression do not matter nor does that make the act any less odious."

    Which is equivalent of seeing a vile act as a black and white issue making all vile act incomparable, thus my comments hold a lot of water...

    This black and white mentality is why things never change. This "Both the west and Islam are equally guilty of Islamic extremism" bullshit mentality is what's keeping moderate non violent Muslims from taking charge of their religion by saying, "These violent passages of the Koran have no place in modern society" and reforming it for good.

    Believe me, I agree wholeheartedly that the west also has to get out of the middle east unless all they want to do is give food and infrastructure. But look at the passages in the Koran and tell me that Islam is not an inherently violent religion (This isn't directed at you, just the way mainstream media is analyzing things (And I don't mean Fox News.. they are naturally exaggerating idiots))....

    Quran (8:12) "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    Quran (2:191-193) "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. Al-Fitnah [Disbelief] is worse than killing"

    But, we are probably gonna have this discussion again the next time there's a terrorist attack... since, you know, nothing changes...


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:39 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A41WZBcmnfc

    not on subject but one of my favorite bill maher rants on the importance of not putting everything on the same shelf for comparison


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jet on Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:13 pm

    Jec wrote:
    Jet wrote:*sigh*

    Your point doesnt hold water because I am obviously only speaking of repression as it pertains to the abuses within the link I posted, and you responded to. Unless you seriously think Im comparing the likes of corporate and self censorship to imprisonment in Islamic and western societies I see no point in introducing that to this conversation.

    *sigh*

    This was your response:

    "The reasons given for repression do not matter nor does that make the act any less odious."

    Which is equivalent of seeing a vile act as a black and white issue making all vile act incomparable, thus my comments hold a lot of water...
    Jesus christ....no they dont.

    Again Im not putting all acts of repression on the same level. Merely what was discussed. Read what I said again.

    jec wrote:
    This black and white mentality is why things never change. This "Both the west and Islam are equally guilty of Islamic extremism" bullshit mentality is what's keeping moderate non violent Muslims from taking charge of their religion by saying, "These violent passages of the Koran have no place in modern society" and reforming it for good.
    Thats the point im making against you actually. The people who you view as "coddling islam" are not the ones in charge, shaping and executing policy. Its the absolutists who view islam as the ultimate evil in the world who are. This is what you arent seeing in your social media floods.

    On the second point, like I said before extremists dont care what anyone says about their actions so this "western coddling only aids extremists" is half-baked bullshit. And moderate muslims are already aware of the situation...


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:16 pm

    Jet wrote:

    Jesus christ....no they dont.

    Again Im not putting all acts of repression on the same level. Merely what was discussed. Read what I said again.


    I did, and that's not what you imply, but I'll take your word on it.

    Jet wrote:
    Thats the point im making against you actually. The people who you view as "coddling islam" are not the ones in charge, shaping and executing policy. Its the absolutists who view islam as the ultimate evil in the world who are. This is what you arent seeing in your social media floods.

    On the second point, like I said before extremists dont care what anyone says about their actions so this "western coddling only aids extremists" is half-baked bullshit. And moderate muslims are already aware of the situation...

    Absolutism can come in many forms Jet... including thinking two things are the same and leaving no room for comparison. That absolutism (The west's actions are just as bad as radical islam) is what has stagnated truly gainful debate.

    If someone considers Islamic Terrorism the ultimate evil, that's because they value different principles and I consider mostly a subjective matter. At least that's my take from this long debate.

    Just look at the timeline of these types of attacks...

    1. Attack happens
    2. Everyone condemns
    3. People debate on causes
    3.1 Everyone who says it's the US's fault - HOOORAY!
    3.2 Everyone who criticize islamic ideals and the islamization of Europe - Biggoted Racists!!!! Islamophobia!!!
    4. Back to the status quo
    5. Return to 1

    The mainstream refuses to acknowledge the problem is in both sides (Western imperialism and the violent ideals of Islam). So much that at least the western imperialism of the middle east is decreasing. There are less permanent military operations and even Obama's foes label him as irresponsible for "leaving" the middle east endangering the US... There's a lot to do, but at least things are improving on that front... How about the front of the reformation of Islam? Malala is probably one of the few true champions of changing those aspects but there is little a little girl can truly do in a country of taliban....

    The coddling of Islam is far from a half baked ideal Jet, one of the terrorist said they felt persecuted in France (Even though they are french born muslims). Fortunately, sociologist and anthropologists far more intelligent than you and I have study the causes of persecution

    ... How would you react if you invited someone into your home and threw the pork in your fridge out the window, because they're jewish? That would probably cause conflict between the home owner and the guest... That useful idiot Reza Aslan is partly right on one thing.... European radicalization happens for the failure to become a cohesive multicultural environment... however he fails to acknowledge that part of the problem is also the attitude and actions of Muslim communities in different european countries (Germany, France, Sweeden, England. etc.). Newcomers can and certainly do add beneficial cultural layers to a diverse society. But when they demand that their new home become just like the one they left, it sets up inevitable clashes. Multiculturalism is "You add and assimilate" not "I'm remaking this to my liking"

    Its a discussion worth having, yet if any of this is seen in Europe, is marked off immediately as Islamophobia and Neonazism.


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jet on Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:20 pm

    Really? Because I haven't heard many spout that position. The mainstream american media narrative is usually the opposite I can guarantee you that, Ive been watching a lot of it. So the idea that religion has nothing to do with the violence is too absolute for you, ok. But even should somebody say 50-50 that is too absolute for you? So what does that leave...Islam is a uniquely evil threat and the primary source to blame for this mess. Sounds like a very absolutist position to me.

    Im not denying there are people who go out of their way to say religion has no part in the radicalization process. As Ive said before I can't say religion doesn't have a role in this. Saudi Arabia for one, actively funds the spread of wahhabi ideology. It is sustained through the building of mosques that promote it and religious police who enforce proper worship with the threat of imprisonment. Notice how my argument is not an attempt to disprove the idea that "coddling of muslims"(even though I wouldnt phrase it as such) exists as a concept, but rather that this "coddling" does not lead to increased attacks. Extremists would act whether you criticized their religion or not. Many of their victims ARE muslims who dont agree with/condemn them after all. This is why the notion that if you aren't critiquing islam you are part of the problem/emboldening terrorism is ludicrous. Oddly, this sounds a lot like Michael Dukakis's presidential bid during the 'tough on crime' era.

    Id also seriously dispute the notion that we are leaving the middle east. As of the recent airstrikes on ISIS(and innocent civilians) all the talk has been "this is a long term war." On CNN some say it will likely run until the end of the next administration. So while we might decrease our footprint in the future we will undoubtedly retain our presence there. This will of course breed the usual resentments, and the cycle continues.

    Now for the point of reform....id like to know how does the average everyday muslim go about reforming a religion? Outside of their own family where they can simply choose not to adhere to certain passages within a script their influence is not exactly strong. On one hand caught between radical extremists and the other, governments who continually destablize the region. I ask because reformation sounds like an impossible task. As insurmountable as asking the average african american to drop the statistics of black on black crime here in the state. Please be as detailed as possible.


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:00 pm

    Jet wrote:Really? Because I haven't heard many spout that position. The mainstream american media narrative is usually the opposite I can guarantee you that, Ive been watching a lot of it. So the idea that religion has nothing to do with the violence is too absolute for you, ok. But even should somebody say 50-50 that is too absolute for you? So what does that leave...Islam is a uniquely evil threat and the primary source to blame for this mess. Sounds like a very absolutist position to me.

    Except, uniquely blaming Islam has never been my position. I simply imply Islam cannot be ignored as a crucial part of the problem. Something mainstream media commentators are trying to ignore. Look at most decent news outlets and look at the tirade of apologist on 24/7 saying extremist misrepresent, or misinterpret, blah blah blah... Remember the discussion we had on control and treatment groups in experiments.

    Jet wrote:Im not denying there are people who go out of their way to say religion has no part in the radicalization process. As Ive said before I can't say religion doesn't have a role in this. Saudi Arabia for one, actively funds the spread of wahhabi ideology. It is sustained through the building of mosques that promote it and religious police who enforce proper worship with the threat of imprisonment. Notice how my argument is not an attempt to disprove the idea that "coddling of muslims"(even though I wouldnt phrase it as such) happens, but rather that this "coddling" does not lead to increased attacks. Extremists would act whether you criticized their religion or not. Many of their victims ARE muslims who dont agree with/condemn them after all. This is why the notion that if you aren't critiquing islam you are part of the problem/emboldening terrorism is ludicrous. This feels oddly like Michael Dukakis presidential bid during the 'tough on crime' era.

    I told you, my rant isn't about your positions but a rather general analysis of the mainstream consensus. I have never implying that not criticizing Islam is emboldening the problem, the problem is not confronting the problem of islamization of western countries. Just like imposing western policies causes friction in the East, it's only logical doing the same in the west will also spawn hatred...

    Jet wrote:Id also seriously dispute the notion that we are leaving the middle east. As of the recent airstrikes on ISIS(and innocent civilians) all the talk has been "this is a long term war." On CNN some say it will likely run until the end of the next administration. So while we might decrease our footprint in the future we will undoubtedly retain our presence there. This will of course breed the usual resentments, and the cycle continues.

    I agree, it's completely debatable, but one cannot deny that at least Obama tried to get out of there. That's why those airstrikes were so controversial... On one side, "The US doesn't care and that's bad!" on the other, "The US are warmongers, blah blah blah".

    Jet wrote:Now for the point of reform....id like to know how does the average everyday muslim go about reforming a religion? Outside of their own family where they can simply choose not to adhere to certain passages within a script their influence is not exactly strong. On one hand caught between radical extremists on one side and the other, governments who continually destablize the region. I ask because reformation sounds like an impossible task. As insurmountable as asking the average african american to stop the statistics of black on black crime here in the state. Please be as detailed as possible.

    As for reza aslan....Ive heard him speak here and there but I don't know enough about him to defend or denounce him. Nor am I interested in doing either.

    The same way catholicism and christianity as a whole were reformed. Brilliant thinkers who called upon the bullshit. First step, acknowledge the problem...

    There's an arab saying, "If one person calls you a horse, they're probably crazy... If another one calls you a horse, it's time to look in the mirror". If everyone would just accept, "Hey muslims, we have a problem with some violent tenants of your religion", that might mount pressure and make them reflect.

    Another important step in reforming christianity was the separation of the church and state, this is of course difficult to change in the arab world so I personally have no freaking clue...

    .... And I'll continue this tomorrow, have to work tomorrow. be right back


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jet on Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:44 pm

    Jec wrote:
    Jet wrote:Really? Because I haven't heard many spout that position. The mainstream american media narrative is usually the opposite I can guarantee you that, Ive been watching a lot of it. So the idea that religion has nothing to do with the violence is too absolute for you, ok. But even should somebody say 50-50 that is too absolute for you? So what does that leave...Islam is a uniquely evil threat and the primary source to blame for this mess. Sounds like a very absolutist position to me.

    Except, uniquely blaming Islam has never been my position. I simply imply Islam cannot be ignored as a crucial part of the problem. Something mainstream media commentators are trying to ignore. Look at most decent news outlets and look at the tirade of apologist on 24/7 saying extremist misrepresent, or misinterpret, blah blah blah... Remember the discussion we had on control and treatment groups in experiments.
    Youve said before you think islamic violence more threatening than western and expressed shock at me even putting both on the same level. This is the most glaring problem ive had with this discussion and the one I find central to every conflict.

    Jet wrote:Im not denying there are people who go out of their way to say religion has no part in the radicalization process. As Ive said before I can't say religion doesn't have a role in this. Saudi Arabia for one, actively funds the spread of wahhabi ideology. It is sustained through the building of mosques that promote it and religious police who enforce proper worship with the threat of imprisonment. Notice how my argument is not an attempt to disprove the idea that "coddling of muslims"(even though I wouldnt phrase it as such) happens, but rather that this "coddling" does not lead to increased attacks. Extremists would act whether you criticized their religion or not. Many of their victims ARE muslims who dont agree with/condemn them after all. This is why the notion that if you aren't critiquing islam you are part of the problem/emboldening terrorism is ludicrous. This feels oddly like Michael Dukakis presidential bid during the 'tough on crime' era.

    jec wrote:
    I told you, my rant isn't about your positions but a rather general analysis of the mainstream consensus. I have never implying that not criticizing Islam is emboldening the problem, the problem is not confronting the problem of islamization of western countries. Just like imposing western policies causes friction in the East, it's only logical doing the same in the west will also spawn hatred...
    Jec this was a response to you stating "coddling"('religion is being misinterpreted/misused' etc) was far from a 'half baked' idea. Which above I explained that whether such rhetoric exists or not isnt the point. Its that there's no correlation to that intensifying/emboldening attacks.

    Secondly...my position isnt what the MSM presents(this is completely isolated from religion) so why are you arguing with me then?!

    Jet wrote:Id also seriously dispute the notion that we are leaving the middle east. As of the recent airstrikes on ISIS(and innocent civilians) all the talk has been "this is a long term war." On CNN some say it will likely run until the end of the next administration. So while we might decrease our footprint in the future we will undoubtedly retain our presence there. This will of course breed the usual resentments, and the cycle continues.

    jec wrote:
    I agree, it's completely debatable, but one cannot deny that at least Obama tried to get out of there. That's why those airstrikes were so controversial... On one side, "The US doesn't care and that's bad!" on the other, "The US are warmongers, blah blah blah".
    Well we're staying there for the forseeable future. Maybe the better option would be to try something different instead of the same old strategy we always have. For every bad guy we kill we create two more. The coalition of nations has now largely diluted to just the US as well.

    Jet wrote:Now for the point of reform....id like to know how does the average everyday muslim go about reforming a religion? Outside of their own family where they can simply choose not to adhere to certain passages within a script their influence is not exactly strong. On one hand caught between radical extremists on one side and the other, foreign governments who continually destablize the region. I ask because reformation sounds like an impossible task. As insurmountable as asking the average african american to drop the statistics of black on black crime here in the state. Please be as detailed as possible.

    As for reza aslan....Ive heard him speak here and there but I don't know enough about him to defend or denounce him. Nor am I interested in doing either.
    jec wrote:
    The same way catholicism and christianity as a whole were reformed. Brilliant thinkers who called upon the bullshit. First step, acknowledge the problem...

    There's an arab saying, "If one person calls you a horse, they're probably crazy... If another one calls you a horse, it's time to look in the mirror". If everyone would just accept, "Hey muslims, we have a problem with some violent tenants of your religion", that might mount pressure and make them reflect.

    Another important step in reforming christianity was the separation of the church and state, this is of course difficult to change in the arab world so I personally have no freaking clue...

    .... And I'll continue this tomorrow, have to work tomorrow. be right back
    Well I was hoping for more of an answer but sure I would assume theres certainly nothing of value lost by removing passages advocating violence from the quoran. I presume Christianity and other religions eliminated all of their counterparts with the new testament and so forth? Though again, I would question the effect it would have on the number of attacks. After all religion largely operates on faith not reason so its likely there would just be a different religious doctrine being cited for justification even with that. Additionally, if the funding to and alliances with despots continue nothing really changes.

    In many ways things were a lot easier back when christianity and judaism edited out their tenets. There are various challenges to peace and incentives to continue war now. Moreover, the means to wage it make it easier than ever before.

    However...specially after the last several decades of instability do you not think in order for that reflection to happen the onus is on the US, the richest, strongest most freedom loving country in the world to first pull out of the region, stop the bombing and allow the environment necessary for that shift to begin taking place?


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    Re: Show Discussions [Tv, Tv Tv, Tv, Sports, Sports, Sports, Call of duty, Dog Edition]

    Post by Jec on Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:06 am

    Jet wrote:
    Youve said before you think islamic violence more threatening than western and expressed shock at me even putting both on the same level. This is the most glaring problem ive had with this discussion and the one I find central to every conflict.

    Your point? That doesn't mean I ignore the other factors involved....

    Jet wrote:
    Jec this was a response to you stating "coddling"('religion is being misinterpreted/misused' etc) was far from a 'half baked' idea. Which above I explained that whether such rhetoric exists or not isnt the point. Its that there's no correlation to that intensifying/emboldening attacks.

    Secondly...my position isnt what the MSM presents(this is completely isolated from religion) so why are you arguing with me then?!

    Honestly, how can you believe the coddling of Islam does not intensify the tension?

    Jet wrote:
    Well we're staying there for the forseeable future. Maybe the better option would be to try something different instead of the same old strategy we always have. For every bad guy we kill we create two more. The coalition of nations has now largely diluted to just the US as well.

    Well what do you propose? Just pull out? It's far more complicated than that. The US has created too many enemies by now to simply pull out of there... Imagine the Caliphate taking over Pakistan, a nuclear armed nation...

    Jet wrote:
    Well I was hoping for more of an answer but sure I would assume theres certainly nothing of value lost by removing passages advocating violence from the quoran. I presume Christianity and other religions eliminated all of their counterparts with the new testament and so forth? Though again, I would question the effect it would have on the number of attacks. After all religion largely operates on faith not reason so its likely there would just be a different religious doctrine being cited for justification even with that. Additionally, if the funding to and alliances with despots continue nothing really changes.

    In many ways things were a lot easier back when christianity and judaism edited out their tenets. There are various challenges to peace and incentives to continue war now. Moreover, the means to wage it make it easier than ever before.

    Christianity was able to do it since after the new testament the two rules to live by are: Do unto others what you would have them do unto you (The golden rule) and love thy neighbor... Islam is more complicated since there is no equivalent to a contextual change inside the Koran... The effects could be felt if it were to change... The Koran is used to "legitimize" their actions and used to convert "loyal muslims" into extreme actions.

    Jet wrote:However...specially after the last several decades of instability do you not think in order for that reflection to happen the onus is on the US, the richest, strongest most freedom loving country in the world to first pull out of the region, stop the bombing and allow the environment necessary for that shift to begin taking place?

    I doubt it would happen. Just look at the arab spring... bunch of fundamentalist governments took over mostly secular nations...


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    Post by Jet on Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:44 am

    [quote="Jec"]
    Jet wrote:
    Youve said before you think islamic violence more threatening than western and expressed shock at me even putting both on the same level. This is the most glaring problem ive had with this discussion and the one I find central to every conflict.
    jec wrote:
    Your point? That doesn't mean I ignore the other factors involved....
    That kind of thinking is the problem

    Jet wrote:
    Jec this was a response to you stating "coddling"('religion is being misinterpreted/misused' etc) was far from a 'half baked' idea. Which above I explained that whether such rhetoric exists or not isnt the point. Its that there's no correlation to that intensifying/emboldening attacks.

    Secondly...my position isnt what the MSM presents(this is completely isolated from religion) so why are you arguing with me then?!
    jec wrote:
    Honestly, how can you believe the coddling of Islam does not intensify the tension?
    Theres no proof that it is intensifying/emboldening attacks. How can you believe that? Where is the proof for that?

    Jet wrote:
    Well we're staying there for the forseeable future. Maybe the better option would be to try something different instead of the same old strategy we always have. For every bad guy we kill we create two more. The coalition of nations has now largely diluted to just the US as well.
    jec wrote:
    Well what do you propose? Just pull out? It's far more complicated than that. The US has created too many enemies by now to simply pull out of there... Imagine the Caliphate taking over Pakistan, a nuclear armed nation...
    I dont know trying something different? As it stands a new group will just replace it in a few years.

    Jet wrote:
    Well I was hoping for more of an answer but sure I would assume theres certainly nothing of value lost by removing passages advocating violence from the quoran. I presume Christianity and other religions eliminated all of their counterparts with the new testament and so forth? Though again, I would question the effect it would have on the number of attacks. After all religion largely operates on faith not reason so its likely there would just be a different religious doctrine being cited for justification even with that. Additionally, if the funding to and alliances with despots continue nothing really changes.

    In many ways things were a lot easier back when christianity and judaism edited out their tenets. There are various challenges to peace and incentives to continue war now. Moreover, the means to wage it make it easier than ever before.
    jec wrote:
    Christianity was able to do it since after the new testament the two rules to live by are: Do unto others what you would have them do unto you (The golden rule) and love thy neighbor... Islam is more complicated since there is no equivalent to a contextual change inside the Koran... The effects could be felt if it were to change... The Koran is used to "legitimize" their actions and used to convert "loyal muslims" into extreme actions.
    Im sure it would have AN effect. Id like to believe things are as simple as words on a book, and changing those words would have a grand effect in reducing the violence. Unfortunately there are still too many external and internal factors to incentivize war and to keep it going. A much bigger challenge now in the modern world to accomplish peace.

    Jet wrote:However...specially after the last several decades of instability do you not think in order for that reflection to happen the onus is on the US, the richest, strongest most freedom loving country in the world to first pull out of the region, stop the bombing and allow the environment necessary for that shift to begin taking place?

    jec wrote:
    I doubt it would happen. Just look at the arab spring... bunch of fundamentalist governments took over mostly secular nations...
    I doubt much of this would actually happen. But as it stands now we are the boogeyman that along with the quoran is used to boost recruitment. Such a dramatic action would surely allow a different environment to begin taking place. If one is serious about attempting any type of long term lasting change it should begin by us making the first move.


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    Post by Jec on Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:22 pm

    Jet wrote:
    That kind of thinking is the problem

    Well I disagree, I believe lazily putting both on the same shelf is the problem.

    Jet wrote:
    Theres no proof that it is intensifying/emboldening attacks. How can you believe that? Where is the proof for that?

    How do you want me to present the proof of this? It's not some mathematical formula where I can say... here, take the proof. Just like you draw conclusions on the causes of extremism on a reaction from imperialism with careful analysis, many real non apologetic thinkers are also drawing the conclusion from careful analysis. Of course the media doesn't like calling intelligent non apologists on air so we don't have interviews of Dawkins, Krauss, Harris, Hemant Mehta, Jaclyn Glenn. Jerry Coyne, among others. MSM only calls upon far right buffons without actual arguments which is easy bait to write them off as racists...

    Amedy Coulibaly had a heated exchange of words with one of the hostages citing among the reasons that they felt persecuted inside their own country "unveiling our women". this are the words of the damn terrorist, I say we should believe them. Persecution doesn't come about "just because"... many people have analyzed that Islamic persecution has come from the distrust and anger at the islamization of europe.



    If you don't see this as a cause for extremism, well I invite you to read on the subject to broaden your scope of analysis

    Jerry Coyne's article on Reza Aslan again (It's a great read): https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/01/11/reza-aslan-blames-charlie-hebdo-massacre-on-frances-inability-to-tolerate-multiculturalism/

    Jet wrote:
    I dont know trying something different?  As it stands a new group will just replace it in a few years.

    Yeah but what? We can't ignore that there are actual threats to western safety. The Islamic State is smart and sophisticated, they simply cannot be ignored.

    Jet wrote:

    Im sure it would have AN effect. Id like to believe things are as simple as words on a book, and changing those words would have a grand effect in reducing the violence. Unfortunately there are still too many external and internal factors to incentivize war and to keep it going. A much bigger challenge now in the modern world to accomplish peace.

    It would have a huge effect if they change or remove those passages... Understand the concept of Sharia (Islamic Law) and the reason why I keep saying that the state is the tool, not the puppetmaster.

    Jet wrote:
    I doubt much of this would actually happen. But as it stands now we are the boogeyman that along with the quoran is used to boost recruitment. Such a dramatic action would surely allow a different environment to begin taking place. If one is serious about attempting any type of long term lasting change it should begin by us making the first move.
    [/quote]

    And we kinda did, but the threat of Isis and the civil war in Syria pulled the west back in.... After all, islamic terrorist affect muslims the most since most attacks are in those islamic countries...


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    Post by Chakramaster on Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:34 pm

    The only way to really figure why someone does what they do is through Psychology and even then through forming any hypothesis....it stands at that.  A Hypothesis (or a theory)....unless of course that person comes out and says why they did it or why "they" are doing it.

    end random simple thoughts*


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    Post by Jec on Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:56 pm

    Chakramaster wrote:The only way to really figure why someone does what they do is through Psychology and even then through forming any hypothesis....it stands at that.  A Hypothesis (or a theory)....unless of course that person comes out and says why they did it or why "they" are doing it.

    end random simple thoughts*

    Exactly, if they come out and scream "We avenged the prophet!!!" It's best we'd fucking believe them...


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    Post by Jet on Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:23 pm

    Jec wrote: Well I disagree, I believe lazily putting both on the same shelf is the problem.
    How did you decide islamic terror is worse than ours? Whats the criteria?

    Jet wrote: Theres no proof that it is intensifying/emboldening attacks. How can you believe that? Where is the proof for that?
    jec wrote: How do you want me to present the proof of this? It's not some mathematical formula where I can say... here, take the proof.
    If you don't see this as a cause for extremism, well I invite you to read on the subject to broaden your scope of analysis Jerry Coyne's article on Reza Aslan again (It's a great read): https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/01/11/reza-aslan-blames-charlie-hebdo-massacre-on-frances-inability-to-tolerate-multiculturalism/
    How does the MSM not condemning the obviously condemnable passages that muslims in western society are not following make any difference whatsoever? An real fear from counterterrorist forces there is alienating further the muslim community, which only makes it easier for extremists to recruit and harder to prevent this happening in the future.

    That article echoes the same words as the last one you posted....the friendly atheist.

    Jet wrote: I dont know trying something different? As it stands a new group will just replace it in a few years.

    jec wrote:Yeah but what? We can't ignore that there are actual threats to western safety. The Islamic State is smart and sophisticated, they simply cannot be ignored.

    Well for one we could try building an actual coalition of nations, of which the US could be a part of. This would involve appealing to the UN security council for a declaration of a threat to peace. The council would then organize a response.

    But thats assuming you want to do something, I don't know....legal.

    Jet wrote: Im sure it would have AN effect. Id like to believe things are as simple as words on a book, and changing those words would have a grand effect in reducing the violence. Unfortunately there are still too many external and internal factors to incentivize war and to keep it going. A much bigger challenge now in the modern world to accomplish peace.
    jec wrote: It would have a huge effect if they change or remove those passages... Understand the concept of Sharia (Islamic Law) and the reason why I keep saying that the state is the tool, not the puppetmaster.

    Whats to stop them from simply ignoring the removal should that happen? Or commiting the same acts under a different justification?

    Jet wrote: I doubt much of this would actually happen. But as it stands now we are the boogeyman that along with the quoran is used to boost recruitment. Such a dramatic action would surely allow a different environment to begin taking place. If one is serious about attempting any type of long term lasting change it should begin by us making the first move.
    jec wrote: And we kinda did, but the threat of Isis and the civil war in Syria pulled the west back in.... After all, islamic terrorist affect muslims the most since most attacks are in those islamic countries...

    How did we?


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    Post by Jet on Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:13 am



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    Post by Jet on Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:05 am

    Ha not even an hr later and the daily show is covering this. Good to see some people seeing through the hypocrisy


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